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Challenger Speaker [message #3299] Fri, 05 December 2003 15:34 BC Messages: 583 Registered: March 2000 Location: Kentucky Senior Member I recently acquired a Challenger....and I have finally convinced the guitar players in my band that KUSTOM is the way to go! (Tube guys....sheesh!) At least I have them using the Challenger and a K-50 for clean sounds so that is a start. My Challenger has an Alnico type (horse shoe magnet) 12 in it. It sounds great....but what was original?? BC Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3303 is a reply to message #3299] Mon, 08 December 2003 07:58   stevem Messages: 4738 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY Senior Member Hi, The way to tell would be by the speaker code stamped some where on the frame or magnet in ink. Its a 5 0r 6 diget code. The first 2 or 3 digets being the manufacturer code 220= jensen, 137=cts,67=eminence.The next number is the year of production, followed by the month for the next 2 digets.I play guitar also and restore and mod tube amps and a amp with a tube preamp is the only way to go Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3307 is a reply to message #3299] Tue, 09 December 2003 07:57   stevem Messages: 4738 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY Senior Member Hey BC they only way to tell about the originallity otf the speaker is from the 5 or 6 diget code stamped in ink on the frame or magnet of it.The first 2 or 3 numbers of the code is the manufacturer. 67 =eminence,137=cts,220=jensen,465=oxford,328=utah.The next number is the year of production, and the next two are the month of production.Kustoms never used oxford or utah speakers, and the only alinco magnet drivers I have seen in kustoms are the 10" cts drivers. I also play guitar not only bass, and I MOD, REPAIR AND RESTORE tube amps. I have to disagree with you, but a properly set up tube amp has the feel and touch and harmonic content that no soild state amp ever will.Hope this info helps. You can date the amp the same way, by the 6 diget code on the controls. They where almost always cts(137) pots. Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3308 is a reply to message #3299] Tue, 09 December 2003 07:58   stevem Messages: 4738 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY Senior Member sorry about the dubble post, my first did not show up on site untill I sent the second. Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3309 is a reply to message #3308] Tue, 09 December 2003 08:20 ET Messages: 146 Registered: October 2000 Location: Charlotte NC Senior Member now..see, normally I'd just sit back and avoid the age old war of tube vs ss. usually just enjoy reading all the posts with the emotions involved..buts it's the holidays, and I've a bit more time on my hands and since this one has come upon our forum...our beloved kustom forum, rather than the vintage guitar board...gotta...just gotta dip my toes in the water. In my toy box there are some very fine tube rigs including marshall and fender that are maintained by our staff amp guru and he does some amazing work..way better than me...and plugging straight into a plexi or charger series kustom is a rather bland experience..not so with the older frank heads..but that's another sub-topic..I've tried the"transtube" and most other attempts at making noise and I remain unimpressed...a modeling amp to me has got to be the biggest waste of money unless you are a working pro and intend to consume the thing in a year's tour, cause in a year it'll be obsolete and you're stuck with a speaker box at that point. But...what I found with my kustoms was in fact a solid transparent amp..capable of being quite bold and with a lack of fidelity and complicated overtones that in fact are an advantage to me..here's why.. I use a Boss ME-X pedal board (ah..the old fx argument...hold up..) the board has all the wet fx in the brain and also allows me to drop my favorite analog stomps into the chain..and more importantly it lets me use a voltage control pedal to adjust the volume without impacting the tone.. I've run this setup through my tube amps, compensating for the extra fidelity...but I just get better response from my kustoms..and the combination of the fx with the kustoms give me tones that constantly amaze folks..and I mean every time.. the line starts "I can't believe you're getting all that from ...." I looked at a lot of amps through the years when I was searching for "my tones"...and yes, I do love the places I can go on my big marshall stacks..places no SS amp can get to...but weekend after weekend for the past 20 years..when I've loaded the van to go play the unkown venue of room size and acoustics, the amps that got pulled were my kustoms..I admit up front.. I like the look..no I love adore and am infatuated with the look...but I also validate the amps for tonal preference...and that's the guitar side...for bass, there are only 2 rigs that really stir me...the first is a cranked SVT, the second if a kustom with Altecs...and that's the scoop from Carolina Backline here in the little old south where we provide the best in marshal, mesa, vox, fender, roland, GK, SWR, Ampegs..and I'm forgetting some..but with all those toys at the ready...when ol ET steps out to play loud...its his kustoms that get the nod..off to work...ya'll have a great day...n Play Loud! ET Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3315 is a reply to message #3309] Wed, 10 December 2003 13:40 axeman Messages: 25 Registered: March 2003 Location: Overland, MO (near St. L... Junior Member Like ET, time is heavy on my hands; so here goes. I like both tube and SS amps, but for different reasons. I like tube amps for that imcomparable swelling, push-back feeling you get when they are set just right. I even love the smell of tubes getting hot. But. . . I don't like the fact that they tend to be heavy, costly to maintain and that their sound tends to change with the temperature of the tubes. I like SS because they have no real warm-up time required, they are consistent, easy/cheap to maintain and, except for Kustoms, tend to be lighter in weight. I don't like them because, in general, they just don't seem to have the same soul. They can sound cold and sterile. Tube amps seem, at times, to be almost alive - actually breathing. That all being said, Kustoms come close to the sound I expect from tube amps, especially with the right pedals in use. SS amps in general, and Kustoms in particular, really seem to work well with pedals. In my music room my Kustom 200 w/ 2x15 sits next to my Mesa Blue Angel. If I only have a few minutes to play I don't even waste time to power up the tubes, I just plug into the Kustom. If I have alot of time on my hands, I'll usually use the Mesa. But, I like them both. I gotta say though, that the Kustom sure looks better! My first and second amps were SS Gibson's I bought in the early 70's. At the time I remember thinking, why would I want heavy, 1950's technology (i.e., Fender). What can I say, I was just a kid. Now, about the modeling amps. Sheesh! They just don't have any cajones! The first one I heard was a Line 6 somethingorother. The salesman said, "It sounds just like a Marshall stack." I remember thinking, yeah it sounds like a Marshall stack - coming through a cheap transister radio! Maybe they've gotten better since then. I've seen a few on stage with national touring acts, but I want no part of one. To me, you can either have an amp like a Blue Angel or a Kustom which do one or a few things really well, or a Line 6 which does a lot of stuff mediocrely (if that's a word). Finding one all around amp is a worthy quest but, in my opinion, it simply doesn't exist. Even though, I have used my Kustom and one of those old Gibsons for acoustic-electrics and they both do surprisingly well. So, who knows? Maybe its all in the ear of the beholder! Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3319 is a reply to message #3315] Thu, 11 December 2003 09:24 ET Messages: 146 Registered: October 2000 Location: Charlotte NC Senior Member well said Axe...We have several folks in my circle of friends who have tried/currently own a Line 6...in fact the older models..first efforts seem to get better reviews from them...and I'm not saying that they suck on tone..just that they more closely follow the way of computers...as soon as you buy one, the next year there's a new model that obsoletes yours..and when a unit fails it can be hard to justify the repair bill if outside of warranty. I played a coliseum gig lastyear where the stage provided a pair of Line 6 units, and I thanked them kindly for making those available as I pulled the covers off my big ol 3x12 200 Kustom and watched the grins on the audio guys faces. Ya know personally I've got an old black face Showman that I really do enjoy, and a marshall 2x12 jcm900 dual reverb combo that is tubed out nicely and a little PV classic 30 that has been reloaded/tubed and is very impressive.. I really do enjoy all these amps, not to mention the gear that is in my backline biz inventory....its just that 35 years ago something about the kustoms grabbed me really hard and I've never fallen out of love with them...through the years as pedals and fx came out and I found some I really enjoyed, I came to appreciate even more, how the kustoms handle the input that I give them..but yeah.. I admit..at the end of the day...put me out on stage with a blue sparkle 4x10 combo behind me and I just somehow feel kooler... ok.. I'm done..promise..hope I didn't brush anybody's tone pots the wrong way...just havin fun...ya'll Play Loud! ET Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3320 is a reply to message #3319] Fri, 12 December 2003 07:52   stevem Messages: 4738 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY Senior Member OK, I still got some time to spair.My biggest problem with soild state and 99% of most tube amps is that they cancle even order harmonics, and with both tube and soild state the better matched each side of the push pull outputs are set up for better sustain, the more the even odrer harmonics are cancled and you are left with harsh sounding 3rds and 7ths. and the sound more harsh as you drive the output section into distortion.For anybody who plays 6 string guitar and has never played thru a single ended tube amp like a fender champ or vibrochamp, or any other brands of single ended amp set up right, try one some time. They may only be 4 to 6 watts but the harmonic content and sweetness of tone will make you hear why so many classic rock songs and solos where recorded on them. Of course if you are into deathmetal guitar sound with all those harsh, brash sounding 3rds and sevenths it will not be for you.But those 2nds, 4ths and 6ths sound so nice. Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3321 is a reply to message #3320] Sat, 13 December 2003 02:05 QModer Messages: 413 Registered: June 2003 Senior Member Well Steve I guess you are left with what a lot guitar players do for heavy distortion chords. You can just play the power chords of the first and the fifth. Thats about all that comes thru with heavy distortion anyway. Or you could get a good a/b switch and use your big kustom for clean. Then a/b into a pusher class a amp like a vox or a pro jr.. If you are using a class a for distortion then it will probably be all the way up anyway because the more the meerier. So you can keep up just fine. Otherwize you are right the third can just get muddied out and what you are left with what one bass I played with called chinese music. Of course this is somewhat amphied by guitar anyway because unlike a piano the basic inversion of chords due the tuning of the strings has the fifth before the third in instead of the other way around. Now then this is further exposed by as we know all the thicker string has the most covering tone. So that second note being the fitth in most cases covers up the third even more. I have listened to Eric Johnson playing some and even though he is incridably fast. I think he often uses different inversions as well. He is a very toneful player too. To me listening to him can almost be like hearing some one play a stratovarious violin at times. Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3325 is a reply to message #3321] Mon, 15 December 2003 16:16   stevem Messages: 4738 Registered: June 2004 Location: NY Senior Member All though both the amps you mention sound good, their being class A is in reference to how the output stage is baised. The still use a push pull output, and hence still cancel even order harmonics. The sound of my little vibro champ has driven me to build a more powerfull version that can be played on stage with out being miced.The only delay right now is dollars. my cost on just building the power supply, driver, and output stage, is right around 500 bucks for a 50 watter, and 80 bucks less for a 25 watter Report message to a moderator

Re: Challenger Speaker [message #3332 is a reply to message #3325] Mon, 15 December 2003 22:52 QModer Messages: 413 Registered: June 2003 Senior Member These little amps run hot too. Report message to a moderator

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