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new TRT 100 findings [message #8083] Mon, 22 January 2007 07:27 Go to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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Over the weekend I lent my 2001 TRT 100 all tube Kustom to afriend to gig with while I repaired his amp, and when I got it back on sunday I had time to really run it thru its paces and address some things about it I wanted to improve.I picked this head up when the muscians friend folks where blowing them out for 400 bucks, down form their original price of over 700 bucks, and now I know why!
The amp is made ok, or as you would expect for something made in china, but it does have some strong points.
It has nice semi torodal power and output transfromers, a full size reverb pan, and in their USA done design Kustom kept all the potential A/C preamp hum causing wiring on the back wall of the amp with all the preamp section on the front wall.they also have a nice vented steel cover on the back to protect the phase inverter and the 4 output tubes and its these 6l6gc output tubes that where part of the mystery I came across.
Since I got the amp I have only used it 4 times for rehearsal, and I never liked the lead channel as for me I needed more highs then it could give, and also the amp did not sound like it was putting out 100 watts rms thru its 4-12 cabinet, and as it turned out I was right.
In testing it out on sunday I found it to be out putting only 62 watts RMS, a far cry from 100.So I did some more test at different impeadance loads to see if the output trnasformers secondary wires where hook up right, as I have come across this problem with many tube amps before, but they where right.Then I checked out the schematic and noticed that the output tube sockets where wire with pins 1 and 8 being common and I also noticed a location by the output tube bias adj pot where a resistor was left out and that really made me wonder and pull my beard.
So I grabed my marshall and yanked out its four EL34 output tubes, stuff them in the Kustom and reset the bias and fired it up.Sure enough the amp then put out 84 watts RMS. The only thing that may be a problem with this change is that the EL34s unlike the original 6L6GC tubes need more heater current as the voltage with the 6l6s was 6.1 and it dropped to 5.8 volts with the el34s so I need to run a long test a see just how hot the power transformer may get do to the extra load. If worse comes to worse I can install a seperate filiment transformer just for the output tubes.
I do not know what the story may be with the TRT100s litle brother the TRT50, maybe they got the output transformer right in that model for its 6L6GC output tubes, it would be interesting to find out, but know I know one of the resons why they never sold that well and had to blow them out at that 400 price, you`ve got a amp advertised as being 100 watts rms wimpin out a 60 watts rms due to its mismatched output tubes and output transformer!
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #8125 is a reply to message #8083] Mon, 29 January 2007 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
daveobergoenner@gmail.com is currently offline  daveobergoenner@gmail.com
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Steve:

As best I recall, the best plate to plate impedance for a pair of 6L6's around 6600 ohms. For a pair of EL34's more like 4300 ohms.

Half of that for a quad of each...or 3300, and 2150.

You could pull the output tubes, and measure the output transformer backwards to figure out what it's primary impedance really should be. Watch out however...just a few volts into the secondary will produce a lot of volts on the primary.

The EL34's should last a long time with only 5.8 volts on the fil. Have you checked to see how much current they are drawing? I guess if the plates aren't starting turning red, they are probably OK.

Dave O.


Dave 0 Wall-O-Bass
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Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #8126 is a reply to message #8125] Mon, 29 January 2007 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
daveobergoenner@gmail.com is currently offline  daveobergoenner@gmail.com
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BTW, did the sound of the amp improve with the EL34's?

Dave O.


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Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #8132 is a reply to message #8083] Tue, 30 January 2007 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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Hi dave,I had just enough bias control range to get the EL34s to idle at 45ma, a little hot for my taste as far as a little too early clipping goes but the amp sounds more like Marshall now with its high gain lead channel although that channel still needs a little more top/bite and less bass so that will be the next thing I dive into with it along with hook up my variac to the output transformer to check its turns ratio and hence its impeadance just out of curiosity to see what it realy is wound for. Who knows maybe they did a compromise impeadance winding to beable to run both 6l6s and el34s.
As far as the 5.8 heater voltage goes I just do not want to burn up the nice power transformer it has I would sooner add a seperate one just to run the power tubes.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #8138 is a reply to message #8132] Tue, 30 January 2007 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
daveobergoenner@gmail.com is currently offline  daveobergoenner@gmail.com
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I'm really interested in this amp...

Seems like 45ma should still be OK for the EL34's. At 500 volts, that gives idle power of 22.5 watts, which is below their 25 watt rating.

I'd love to see a few pix of the insides of this thing...If you could snap a few next time you have it open. If there's space, an additional filament transformer would be a very good idea. I'd look for one with metal end-bells, to reduce the hum.

Torroid output transformer cores are also (generally) fairly intollerant of unbalanced current to the output tubes.

I'm guessing it does not use an ultra-linear output configuration? Fender tried using that in some of their tube amps about 20 years ago, and it was not well received by guitarists. Works great for Hi-Fi, and might be OK for bass, but not what you want for guitar.

Thanks,
Dave O.


Dave 0 Wall-O-Bass
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Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #8140 is a reply to message #8083] Tue, 30 January 2007 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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Yea I would be ok with 45ma too but in this amp the outputs start to add their grind just a tad to early.Their is also plenty of room for a suplimental filiment transformer, the amps output and power transformer are only simi torridal not fully toridal and the output stage in not ulralinear like my fender 1976 proreverb which has a interesting story about its output stage that may point a clue at why they sounded so bad.After having this amp for some years I got some nice RCA black plate 6l6s to stuff in it and ditch the sovtecs that it had, so after putting the new ones in I hooked the amp up to my load resistor and scope to see what it would put out wattage wise hoping for a improvment as it never sounded like a 70 watt RMS amp to me from day one, and my 42 watt bandmaster would give I a good run for its money any day.Well I fire it up to test it and its putting out all of 48 watts, and after a while I find out its got a twin reverb output transformer in it, and I always wondered since I got the amp why the output transformer was so large for a 70 watt amp, well now I knew why!
This transformer is original to the amp, its plate leads have never been unsoldered from day one, they look like when the amp left the factory, so its my guess that alot of these proreverbs where made this way due to the fact that the twins where made on the same chassie so at the factory their must have been some mess up where some proreverbs got the twins output transformer.
So anyway what it did with mine was rewire the 2 8 ohm drivers to serise to get the impeadance load right and I got my 65 watt RMS amp,I guess fender was hopefull back then that the amp would do the output numbers the math crunching said it would.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16837 is a reply to message #8083] Wed, 28 March 2012 00:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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I took your advice and modified my TRT-100 to use EL34s. Added a 3 amp filament transformer in parallel. I also added the "missing" resistor to the bias circuit. As it stood, it wasn't grounded and didn't make any sense. Now, I can use 6L6s or the EL34s (actually, I used Gold Lion KT77s). I'm very pleased with the results. I am trying to locate a schematic. Do you know where I might find one?
Thanks
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16840 is a reply to message #8083] Wed, 28 March 2012 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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If you can pass along a fax # I can blast you out a copy.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16843 is a reply to message #16840] Wed, 28 March 2012 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kustom_Bart is currently offline  Kustom_Bart
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What method are you using to set and check the bias? This I can help with...lol! If it has 4 tubes and is supposed to be 100watts check one tube and see what your plate voltage is lets say it is 580 then divide 25 watts by plate voltage equals 43 milliamps and multiply by 70% and this should give you your bias target of 30

25 divided by 580 = .043 or 43 milliamps X .7 = .030 or 30 milliamps for 70% bias if you have a single bias pot you only need to do one tube as the rest will follow pretty close. If you want it to break up a little bit more you can up the bias to 35 or 38.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16846 is a reply to message #16843] Wed, 28 March 2012 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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I believe I set them to 38 ma. It was based on whatever the plate voltage measured and a maximum plate disapation of 25 watts. I used 70% of that . . . (If I remember, the plate voltage was around 480 volts loaded). I will keep your formula! I've been using an on-line bias calculator for the most part.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16847 is a reply to message #16846] Wed, 28 March 2012 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kustom_Bart is currently offline  Kustom_Bart
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You should be good then,

25 div by 480v = .052 or 52ma x .7 = 36.4 bias

so 38 is fine you could go 40 and it would break up a little easier. 31-32 would be slightly under bias to make it really warm nice cleans.


38 is a great bias setting.

The one thing that you want to remember at least this was told to me by Bob Rissi www.rissonamplifiers.com this guy knows his stuff. He told me that EL34's and 6550 tubes are the most efficient tubes and you can push the bias a little bit on them and get a good clean tone still. He said that these should be the tubes of choice whenever you change tubes if you can change to them, do so. I know I love EL34's and I have a Risson amp with 4 6550's in it that just screams at 240watts.......

[Updated on: Wed, 28 March 2012 19:23]

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Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16848 is a reply to message #8083] Wed, 28 March 2012 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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That statement by Bob is not fully true, as the two tubes he speaks of are quite different, and not just for their power output!
A 6550 along with a 5881,6L6, 6V6,7027a,8417,7581a, 6CA7(EL34s brother) and some 3 or 4 other tubes, all have beam forming plates as part of there structure, and as such pull current and hence power much faster than a EL34 or EL84 for that matter!
These two latter mentioned tubes are more dynamic when played and listened to closly, in other words they have more range between being clean and then going into clipping when set up right, and even more so in a amp circuit that imploys no negitve feed back from the output stage!

A nice combo I find to utilize in somewhere around a 70 watt amp with 4 output tubes is to run two 34s and two JJ 6V6s, but you need to have a split bias system in place, but atleast the JJs can live with 500 volts on the plates if need be!

[Updated on: Wed, 28 March 2012 20:57]

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Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16849 is a reply to message #16848] Wed, 28 March 2012 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kustom_Bart is currently offline  Kustom_Bart
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I think his point Steve was they are efficient in power usage as they run easy. He put four 6550's in my amp and a 3 way switch that runs all 4 and then cuts to two tubes over biased and then the last position is two tubes under biased.

Just for the fun of it, go to his site and read about him, he was the engineer who invented all of the good Fender amps. The guys a wealth of knowledge and wants to share the knowledge and that is coolby me as he taught me a ton...lol.....first thing...."When probing an amp, keep one hand in your pocket."....lol!
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16851 is a reply to message #16840] Wed, 28 March 2012 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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Wow, thanks, Steve! I've tried Kustom and a few other places to obtain a copy of the TRT-100 schematic and no one has it. Kustom doesn't even recognize the model number anymore. I think mine was built in 1999. Ok, here's the FAX number: 360-377-6455 (my son-in-laws business). I appreciate your help.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16852 is a reply to message #16847] Wed, 28 March 2012 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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I perfer 6550s but the amp won't physically support them. I was originally going to use KT66s but the bulbs are too large and won't fit the available space. Also, 6550s use a lot of screen current and need good regulation for the screen supply. I'm not sure the TRT could handle that and I know I don't have the smarts to change the design that significantly lol
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16854 is a reply to message #8083] Thu, 29 March 2012 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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It would not pay to put 6550s in the amp anyway if you are looking for more wattage, as the amps power supply current limit will only let it put out some 92 watts rms, but if you want the responce and tightness of 6550s and not the power then install a quad of JJ 6CA7s that have the beam forming plates like a 6550 does!
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16855 is a reply to message #16854] Thu, 29 March 2012 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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Are they similar to the Svetlana EL34s? I actually have two of these amps; one with Svetlanas and one with Gold Lion KT77s (reissue). They both sound about the same . . .
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16856 is a reply to message #16855] Thu, 29 March 2012 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kustom_Bart is currently offline  Kustom_Bart
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Personally EL34's are my favorite tubes. I like the sound of them over anything else I have ever used. I do not care for 6L6's but that is just me. You may like them. The brand isn't such a big deal, how they are matched is and how hot of a tube they are is too. Go to www.eurotubes.com and do some reading about tubes and biasing as this will help you understand more about tubes and bias.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16861 is a reply to message #16856] Thu, 29 March 2012 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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Thanks, I'll check it out. Most of the amps I've built are based on self biasing and not fixed. Not the most efficient powerwise(everyone seems to be going for SE low wattage amps these days) but great vintage tone. I've only gotten into fixed biasing with hi-fi amps I've built and, of course, the big name guitar amps I've biased for friends. Glad to learn any info I can regarding the subject.
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16862 is a reply to message #8083] Fri, 30 March 2012 07:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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I love the singing responce of a cathose biased output stage when you push it and have had plans to build a around a 50 watter with KT88s, or two KT90s that I have had sitting around for a while, I just need to get off my butt and do it!

I try my best to use Groovetubes outputs in my repairs for folks when they can afford it (added cost), as their matching process and testing program that that also matches the tubes output at 3 different test frequencys and rise time, not just current and burn in like other companys.
Nothing sings like a groovetubes matched up set and as advertized do last longer!
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16866 is a reply to message #16862] Fri, 30 March 2012 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mwbuckley is currently offline  mwbuckley
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I will keep that in mind. Most of the musicians I tech for want the tone and are willing to pay for it, if I think the tubes are better. Personally, I like good ole USA old stock but it is getting much harder to find and really not worth the expense. I still really like the Svetlana "C" EL34s. Haven't had any fail on me yet. I put a quad of brand new Gold Lion KT66s (reissues) in a friend's guitar amp and biased them conservatively. They all blew out within a month's worth of hard playing. I felt pretty bad about that and was surprised how short of life they had. He had several hundred dollars invested in the tubes. Loved the sound though!
Re: new TRT 100 findings [message #16870 is a reply to message #8083] Mon, 02 April 2012 06:51 Go to previous message
stevem is currently offline  stevem
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Yea, you pay alot of money for those russain made tubes due to the purchase of the gold lion name!
The Groovetubes version is a Chineess made one to groovetubes specs and has been very reliable.
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