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speakers [message #18521]

Tue, 26 March 2013 07:40

stevem
Messages: 4730
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Can any one of you fellow Kustom nuts comfirm for me that Kustom K100 amps( combo type or non) used a 16 ohm driver?
Thanks in advance!

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Re: speakers [message #18524 is a reply to message #18521]

Tue, 26 March 2013 14:14

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

That is correct, they used two 16ohm drivers making a total 8ohm load.

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Re: speakers [message #18531 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 27 March 2013 08:08

stevem
Messages: 4730
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Sorry, I should have been more clear(I was typing too fast) as I interested in the single driver K100 amps.
I know that the factory dealer tech info states they are a 16 ohm driver, but once again I can not fathome why they would turn a 50 watt amp into one that can only output some 28 watts of clean power. Its not alot of power for a bass amp which is what most of the piggie back K100s where sold for.

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Re: speakers [message #18532 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 27 March 2013 09:20

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

they used a single 8ohm in there 1x15 cabinets

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Re: speakers [message #18533 is a reply to message #18532]

Wed, 27 March 2013 11:11

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

It still would have been a 16ohm speaker if I remember the conversation that Pleat and me had correctly. In that era they used 16ohm speakers for everything, even some in the K50's and K25's. I personally have never owned one, but have heard of them. Maybe at that point they were buying what ever they could at the cheapest price and using them or using up whatever they had the most of on hand too.

If it were me I would put in the 8ohm to get the power from the amp and you sure aren't going to hurt it.

[Updated on: Wed, 27 March 2013 11:13]

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Re: speakers [message #18534 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 27 March 2013 11:15

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

I'm sure they came with 8ohm, remembrr the Altec 421 16ohm! i have never yet seen one. i really think they put 8ohm speakers in their cabinets.

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Re: speakers [message #18535 is a reply to message #18534]

Wed, 27 March 2013 12:04

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

For the regular Jensens, they were mostly 16ohm for the specialty speakers it is a different story, I have seen a 16ohm Altec now and have a pic of it too...lol! I will leave it up to the Historian Pleat to let Steve know for sure. But on the single speaker units they used 16ohm speakers and 8ohm speakers both.

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Re: speakers [message #18536 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 27 March 2013 12:12

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

ha i wanna see the 16 ohm pic!

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Re: speakers [message #18537 is a reply to message #18536]

Wed, 27 March 2013 16:25

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

I think we need some clarification as to what amps and cabs we are talking about.
The 100 SC (series self contained amp and speakers in one case) are the SC series.
The 100 SC series later changed to the 150 SC series.

The K100-1 head and K100-2 heads came with a separate speaker cabinet, and was offered with 2x12 or the 1x15 speaker cabinet with different brand speaker options.

According to amps I've owned, and literature and dealer service copies I have.
The K100 SC 2x10 amp is the oddball amp, that used 8 ohm speakers wired in series for a 16 ohm load and literature shows it is a 50 watt peak power amp and included a speaker out jack on the back panel. Kustom did this to prevent amp failure when using a second speaker cabinet.

This may have been a short lived amp, as I've owned some without the extra speaker output jack and the speakers in those amps had 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for 8 ohms to the amp.

The K100 SC 2x12 used 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for 8 ohms, both in the standard Jensen and Altec 417 speaker versions.
The K100 SC 1x15 amp used an 8 ohm speaker, both in the CTS and Altec 421 speaker option.

The K25 and K50 SC amp used a single 16 ohm speaker Jensen speaker. I've owned several of these amps that have came to me both ways, with original Jensen 8 or 16 ohm speakers. More 16 ohm speakers in the K25 than the K50 amps.

Moving to the K100-1 and K100-2 piggyback amps.
Two versions of the head. 60 watt rms into a 8 ohm load.
K100-1 straight bright/ normal two channel head.
K100-2 single bright channel with reverb and vibrato.

Cabinets offered in two versions, the 2x12 cabinet and the single 1x15 cabinet.
2x12 cabinets speaker options are:
Jensen brand 16 ohms wired for 8 ohm load.
CTS brand 16 ohm wired for 8 ohm load.
Altec 417 brand 16 ohm wired for 8 ohm load.
Kustom did not offer the 2x12 cabinet with the JBL D120F speakers.

The 1x15 cabinets offered:
JBL D130F brand single 15" 16 ohm.
JBL D140F brand single 15" 16 ohm.
CTS brand single 15" 16 ohm.
Altec brand 418 15" 16 ohm.
Altec brand 421AB 8 ohm.
Jensen brand P15L 16 ohm. This is where it gets interesting.
Altec 418 1x15" is not listed in any dealer service literature as to the impedance. I am assuming it will be a 16 ohm as Kustom was offering the 418 in several 2x15 and 3x15 cabs along with the 3x15 siren PA cabs.

In the 69/70 big catalog with the supplemental pages. The 1x15 cab is shown with Altec 421AB that is sitting under the K100-1 head. That page shows a K200 head sitting on a 2x15 Altec 421AB cab. The page also shows the K400 head but with only two cabinets.

Knowing that the K400 head was offered in the main catalog with four cabs in the standard 418 altec cabs, I'd say any of the kustom cabs that were offered with the 421AB Altec speakers, the 1x15 and 2x15 cabs, those speakers would be 8 ohms each.

pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18543 is a reply to message #18521]

Thu, 28 March 2013 08:01

stevem
Messages: 4730
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Well my question I guess is really directed for someone who has a K1100-1 or K100-2 speaker cabinet with a single 15"er be it CTS,Jensen, Altec or JBL.
In regards to if or if not cabinets came fitted with Altec 418 or 421 drivers, if we can determin the shipping weight, then a can fitted with 421 drivers for bass would be over 20 lbs greater in heaft than a 418 loaded cab.

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Re: speakers [message #18544 is a reply to message #18543]

Thu, 28 March 2013 09:44

C4ster
Messages: 686
Registered: June 2001
Location: Mukwonago, WI (Milwaukee...

Senior Member

Steve,
I bought 2 1x15 cabinets with CTS 15" speakers. Each was 16 ohms. I replaced those with 8 ohm JBL E140's.
Conrad

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Re: speakers [message #18547 is a reply to message #18544]

Thu, 28 March 2013 13:59

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

My single 15 cab has a 8ohm Jensen in it, so you never know what you are going to get....lol! It could be a factory replacement too, you just never know. Confused

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Re: speakers [message #18549 is a reply to message #18547]

Thu, 28 March 2013 15:05

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

I've owned two of the 115 cabinets with CTS and they were 16 ohms with the kustom paint stamp on the frames. KustomBart mentioned his 115 cab has a 8 ohm Jensen. My question would be to anyone who has a 115 cab, to check to make sure the speaker has the Kustom paint stamp or the stamped K in the JBL speakers. Without verifying the speaker came from Kustom, the speaker could have been swapped out. Removing the back is the best way to tell what speaker is in the cab and a good time to remove any objects from the bottom of the cabinet, and make sure all the nuts are tight.

pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18553 is a reply to message #18549]

Thu, 28 March 2013 19:56

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

Mine has the Kustom stamp on it and being a 8ohm speaker it could be what they had on hand or it could be something that was replaced by Kustom too. You never know when or what era things were going on, that is all part of the fun of it. Smile

For sure, always take the back of from any new cabs that you get because you find a treasure trove of goodies in them. The last on I got had a great find of goods, Blue Nun folding corkscrew/ wine bottle opener, Tin chrome flash light (with no batteries inside), a razor knife, a plastic candy long tic-tac type of dispenser, kids toy that was like a big lego dogs head and I can't recall what else. All handy stuff though. The wine bottle opener is a handy item that went in my gig box along with the flash light after I added batteries. LOL!

Pic!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/bketner/k100jackpot_zps8126b86b.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/bketner/k100jackpot2_zps928f1fd5.jpg

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Re: speakers [message #18556 is a reply to message #18521]

Fri, 29 March 2013 07:38

stevem
Messages: 4730
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Well may be we can hear from more owners of the single 15 cab even cabinets and get a better grasp as to them being fitted with, or without question with 16 drivers.
I just do not understand why Kustom would by intent make the K100 output less wattage than even a Fender Bassman amp of the day, or their near rival Acoustic control!

I got a cabinet that had 5 fishing lours in it stuck to the lower speakers magnet ( no speaker cone damage), and a big ass spoon! Some mom is probibly wondering to this day where her best large size serving spoon got off to, and some person who was a small kid back when is still glad the they did not get found out and get their little fanny smaked!!

[Updated on: Fri, 29 March 2013 07:39]

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Re: speakers [message #18595 is a reply to message #18521]

Mon, 01 April 2013 10:03

conductortom
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2010
Location: Okla

Member

I have 3 1-15 cabs and all have 8 ohm speakers in them. Altec 421's and Jensen's. I have 4 2-12 cabs and they all had 16 ohm speakers.

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Re: speakers [message #18596 is a reply to message #18521]

Mon, 01 April 2013 10:06

conductortom
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2010
Location: Okla

Member

My K150 had 2 12's that were 8 ohm.

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Re: speakers [message #18601 is a reply to message #18596]

Mon, 01 April 2013 19:38

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

ConductorTom,
are your 115 cabs that are loaded with Altec 421's and the Jensen 8 ohms. Do the speakers have the Kustom ink or paint stamp on the frames? All the 115 cabs, do they have the aluminum or chrome plastic ports?
As far as I can determine, all the original 115 and 2x12 aluminum port cabs came with 16 ohm speakers. The newer chrome port cabs, Depending on the age of the cabs, could contain both 16 ohm 418's and 8 ohm 421 Altec's.

pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18603 is a reply to message #18521]

Tue, 02 April 2013 12:49

conductortom
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2010
Location: Okla

Member

Pleat,
2 of the cabs had jensen's, when I got them. I replaced them with the Altec 421's. I don't remember if they were stamped Kustom or not. I will check as soon as I get back home. The 3td cab had a speaker in it, that had been replaced as warrenty work in 84. On back of speaker, someone had written, that it was replaced under warrenty. I don't know what kind it is. It has a hard plastic frame. ?? It also had a choke screwed in on the inside of cab, but was not hooked up. Don't have a clue what it was used for. But all speakers were 8 ohm.
As far as the ports, I will check them too and let you know.

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Re: speakers [message #18610 is a reply to message #18521]

Thu, 04 April 2013 17:00

conductortom
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2010
Location: Okla

Member

Pleat,
Checked cabs and they are all chrome port. One had a Jensen in it and the one I got from Terry had a stock CTS in it. The other had the warranty speaker in it and I'm not sure what it is. All are 8 ohm, 15" speakers. Replaced 2 with Altec 421's and still have the Jensen in last one. I couldn't see a Kustom stamp on them.

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Re: speakers [message #18611 is a reply to message #18610]

Fri, 05 April 2013 07:20

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

That seems to be the issue with cabinets that are 40+ years old. A lot of the cabinets we've been looking at, have had speaker changes, upgrades or warranty replacements. Without any Kustom paint stamps on the frame, the speaker isn't a stock kustom speaker. I guess we need to find more cabinets for comparision.
pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18612 is a reply to message #18521]

Fri, 05 April 2013 18:03

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

Yes I like that Find more! I think you mean buy more!!!!

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Re: speakers [message #18613 is a reply to message #18521]

Fri, 05 April 2013 18:30

conductortom
Messages: 96
Registered: July 2010
Location: Okla

Member

Hey' I all for MORE. LOL. Very Happy

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Re: speakers [message #18623 is a reply to message #18613]

Mon, 08 April 2013 19:05

BC
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2000
Location: Kentucky

Senior Member

In some of my old Kustom schematics that went through the flood...there was a page that stated all the 15 inch drivers were 16 ohm. That is not to say that was a permanent statement as it could have been superceeded later. I also remember Bud saying that they cheated with some of the 100 series amps that actually had 12 ohm speakers that were labeled as 16 or unlabeled to get more power from them. Pleat do you remember that conversation? Very Happy

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Re: speakers [message #18624 is a reply to message #18623]

Mon, 08 April 2013 19:47

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

I do remember Bud at our 2008 Nashville show talking about having 12 ohm speakers manufactured for some of their speaker cabinets. My factory literature, does show 12 ohm speakers for the 2-12B* cabinet. The* designation refers to the newer K150 and K250 series amps. By the time the slant face K150 and K250 came out, Kustom had changed to using 8 ohms for the guitar and PA cabs, along with 16 ohm horn drivers. I'm sure we'll find original examples that will show some differences, and I'd attribute that to depleting old speaker inventory.
pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18625 is a reply to message #18624]

Mon, 08 April 2013 20:27

rodak
Messages: 511
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia

Senior Member

12 ohm speakers? whoa!
That would have made a lot of sense for the 3x15 cabs, wouldn't it? 3x12 ohm in parallel would be 4 ohms right?

www.combo-organ.com

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Re: speakers [message #18626 is a reply to message #18625]

Mon, 08 April 2013 21:00

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

It would, but by the time Bud was ordering 12 ohm, 8" and 12" speakers, the K200 heads were replaced with the newer slant face amps and PA heads. BC was right with his literature, all K200 amps used 16 ohm speakers. I have a pair of blown KEI 12" 12 ohm speakers hanging in my garage.
pleat

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Re: speakers [message #18627 is a reply to message #18521]

Tue, 09 April 2013 05:48

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

Well you you know.. all the weird stuff happened in the 60's Smile

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Re: speakers [message #18628 is a reply to message #18521]

Tue, 09 April 2013 05:49

sunnhead
Messages: 221
Registered: June 2010
Location: Minnesota

Senior Member

Also in the 3x15's why didnt they use (2) 16ohm and (1) 8ohm!?

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Re: speakers [message #18629 is a reply to message #18521]

Tue, 09 April 2013 09:52

rodak
Messages: 511
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia

Senior Member

Well, that I can kind of see - doing so, you'd have one speaker (the 8 ohm) carrying half the power, and the other two 25% each - probably not the best situation. I think probably the ideal arrangement would be to have two 3x15 cabinets, each loaded with two 15" speakers (16 ohms, parallel for a total of 8 ohms) and one HF horn, both fed by one K200 head. That way you'd have:
a) A 4 ohm load presented to the amp, for maximum power output
b) Two HF horns, for great highs
c) A better match of cabinet volume to the speakers. I understand that a 3x15 cabinet really does not have enough internal volume to allow 3 15" speakers to develop all the low-end they're capable of.

Of course, two 3x15 cabs look way cooler than one anyway.

www.combo-organ.com

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Re: speakers [message #18638 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 10 April 2013 07:47

stevem
Messages: 4730
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

All the 3-15" cabs used 3 16 ohm drivers even in the cabinets where a round horn was in the top section.
This made for a total load of 5.3 ohms.

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Re: speakers [message #18641 is a reply to message #18521]

Wed, 10 April 2013 16:06

rodak
Messages: 511
Registered: October 2001
Location: Georgia

Senior Member

Yes, but the HF driver only presens a load at the higher frequencies, so at the lower freqs, where the power amp works hardest, and output power is greatest, it would only see 8 ohms, right?

So, yeah, while technically, hooking two 3x15 cabs with horns to a single K200 could potentially present a 2.8 ohm load, it would only be at the higher frequencies, where the amp is much more likely to tolerate it, and where the power output wouldn't be as great anyway. At least, in my experience, the impedance of a horn (with a passive crossover, of course)is almost never factored in when figuring the load presented to the amp.

What crossover frequency is used for the horn in a 3x15 cab, anyway? (or what size cap is used?)

www.combo-organ.com

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Re: speakers [message #18642 is a reply to message #18641]

Wed, 10 April 2013 17:06

Kustom_Bart
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2010
Location: Greenville, MichiGUN

Senior Member

You are correct, the horn should not be factored in at all. Only the 15" drivers so it would be an eight ohm cab. I have 4 of them and that is how they ring out on a meter as well. So, you can run 2 of them with a K200 or 4 of them with my K400 Shocked

But, you'll put someone's eye or ear out!

[Updated on: Wed, 10 April 2013 17:08]

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Re: speakers [message #18643 is a reply to message #18641]

Wed, 10 April 2013 17:58

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

Kustom didn't offer two 3x15 cabs with a single K200 head in the guitar and bass amps. Kustom did offer the two 3x15 siren cabs in the PA version. Since your right as the frequency goes down, the horns are not that much of the load. I have seen most of the siren cabs with a 4MF cap in series with the horn driver, which would cross it around 2500Hz. I also have siren cabs and the newer 215+H horn cabs with 10MF caps that would cross around 1KHz. Since the original 3x15 siren K200-5 PA system was designed for vocals only, I wouldn't think the program material ever put a huge demand on the power amp.
pleat

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