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PA ENERGIZERS [message #21314]

Mon, 01 September 2014 11:41

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Well think I am confused again. Hooked up my "400" K400-b 5 k amp this morning for the first time, and what a dog. With volume all the way up, not much power even thru the two 3-15 cabinets. My 745 amp has way more power and I can't even turn it past 5. Power level is the same on all eight input jacks on this amp. I did run a Y adapter between two of the inputs and did notice an increase in power. So what gives.........is there only 100 watts per channel on this thing and to get all 400 watts I'd have to plug into every channel?

What about the 600 series PA amps.......how is that 600 watts distributed? Thinking bigger isn't better now. Thanks.

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21315 is a reply to message #21314]

Mon, 01 September 2014 19:47

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

The K400B-5 PA amplifier is a total of 200Watts RMS into two 4 ohm speaker cabinets. The amp has two 100 watt RMS power amps housed in one case.
The number of pre-amp channels has nothing to do with the output of the amp. If you were using a 16 channel mixer with no power amp, all you have is 16 channels to plug mic's or instruments into. You still need a power amp to drive the speakers and the power amp you choose, determines how much wattage or output to the speakers is how loud the system will produce.
Your K400 may have some issues if there isn't much volume, that should be looked at by a amp tech.
pleat

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21316 is a reply to message #21315]

Mon, 01 September 2014 22:00

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

So what was the point then of putting the 400 on the amp fronts if maximum wattage isn't 400 watts? Are you also saying that since there are basically 2 amp heads in one cabinet does the instrument signal go to both amps or only one and that one side is one amp and the other jacks on the other side are the other? This is complicated. So what was the advantage of buying this amp over two 200 series separately?

The innards are very dirty and I ordered DexiT-DSS and FSS cleaner. Is it ok to spray the DSS on the circuit boards since they are so dirty......air won't cut it.

Also, have you ever seen or know of a "Blue Book" for Kustom equipment?

[Updated on: Mon, 01 September 2014 23:06]

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21317 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 06:44

stevem
Messages: 4733
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Back in those days music gear was rated at its peak power, not its rms power like today, although most gear today does not hit / make its advertised rms power today anyway, but it did back then when these amps where made!
Most guitar amp tube stuff today has power supply`s that are really built to a price point. not to the real needs of the amp that they are in, but I digress, sorry!

Like Pleat posted and myself in a reply to you before, the K400 used two of the output stages from the K200B heads and each output section could do a max of 100 watts rms into a 4 ohm load.

To get that near 4 ohm (5.3 ohm) or 4 ohm load you needed to have two of the 3-15" cabinets for a 5.3 ohm load on each output section, or 4 of the 2-15"cabinets.
If you are running just one 2-15" cabinet on each power amp for a 8 ohm load the amp will only output some 65 watts of pure clean rms power.
Just NOTE that cutting the wattage in half does not make for Half the volume out of the speakers, the amp will seem to have a tad less power but not half.
what the amp will display is half the amount of clean power before it distorts!

Why was the head so big for just 200 watts rms, well bigger was more impressive back than pure and simple and also the trunk size of the average car if you will recall could fit that size head with ease and some could even handle a 2-15" cabinet also!

Your K400 should sound just as good as a K200 played through the same speakers, so it does have some type of issue!

Cleaning / washing the boards off will likely not help the issue and if done wrong and some of the dirty run off gets into some of the control pots you will have even more of a mess on your hands!!
If you must clean them off in regards to the ones on the front of the amp I would pull the knobs off then remove the 4 nuts that hold the board up to the inside of the amp and then back them off and spray the down while holding them on a angle to just let the run off go down into a stack of paper napkins of whatever.
If you have volt ohm meter tell use what kind it is and we can, if you want walk you thru some things to check and may be pin down what the issue is, or at least rule some things out!

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 07:02]

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21318 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 08:25

stevem
Messages: 4733
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

In regards to your question about the K600 heads, they where 300 watts rms and would be about 1/3rd louder than a good working K 400.
They are however a much more heavy amp, a 400 is big but can be done by one person if need be, a 600 will really give one person a work out!
They make a far far better PA than the 400, but it's still just made for high impedance mics!

Also note that on your K400 in regards to cleaning off the boards that if you can not with good air pressure remove at least 20% of the dust and crap off the boards then the crap is likely the remains of the amp getting wet! and wet is not good!

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 08:27]

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21319 is a reply to message #21318]

Tue, 02 September 2014 09:10

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

The K600 PA amp uses two Power amps of the K300 PA. Same idea of the K400 PA. The K600 has four speaker outputs, and each amp wants a 4 ohm load.
pleat

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21321 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 11:05

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Thanks guys for clearing things up. Now that I understand how the ohms worked with these amps think I know what the problem is. I had my 3-15's set at 8 ohms not 5.33 and that should explain the low output.

As to the amp itself, don't think there was any water damage since I took all the upholstery off and there is no signs of discolored or rotted wood. Think it has spent a lot of time in a dirty basement, garage or worse yet a barn or maybe even the trunk of a 72 Chevy!

Noticed too yesterday that there is feedback noise when bass is plugged in. Turning off the reverb doesn't change anything only when I disconnect from the amp does it disappear. Noise is much more noticeable when treble is turned up as well. Get the same noise in all the inputs.

Seems Kustom missed the boat with there PA equipment then back in the day. Don't remember ever if at all seeing anyone use them for PA.....lots of instrument amps but not PA. Speakers are impressive but amps sure lack the power especially if everyone in the band is running 200 plus watts per amp. Bass, keyboards, 2 guitars......you could easily overpower even the Kustom 600 series it sounds like. Funny how things have changed.....now the suitcase amps and the massive PA equipment.

I will reset speakers and see if that doesn't change the output.......clean it up and will let you know what happens.. thanks again.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 11:07]

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21322 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 12:08

stevem
Messages: 4733
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

My high school band used a k200 with two 4-12 cabs even into our first two years of night club paying!
In the east coast area these where very popular for PA use, just look at ebay, at any one time there is two B-5 heads for sale!
Here's a question for you , how did you wire 3-15 inch drivers for a 8 ohm load?

It sounds like you are having a problem with the k400 oscillating to me from what you have posted!

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21323 is a reply to message #21322]

Tue, 02 September 2014 13:19

pleat
Messages: 1452
Registered: June 2004
Location: Belding, Mi

Senior Member

Did you used the 745 PA to power the same cabinets that you used when you powered up the K400-5 PA amp. If yes and the 745 was remarkablely louder than the K400, you have something wrong with the K400 amp.

A 400 watt amp is not twice as loud as 200 watt amp. To gain twice the loudness of a 200 watt amp, you need a 1000 watt amp to be twice as loud. The difference between a 200 watt and a 400 watt amp is about 3Db louder. 3Db is about what we would hear as a difference in loudness.

Back in the day the PA systems were designed for vocals, so the vocal range didn't need the huge wattage as a bass guitar would need to produce the really low notes of the bass guitar. My band back in the 60's ran a K200-5 PA head into two 3x15 siren horn PA cabs. My amp was the K400-1 with a pair of 3x15 JBL cabs for guitar, the bass player used the K400-1 amp with a pair of 3x15 CTS cabs. The other guitar player used a K200-1 amp and a 3x15 Jensen cab. We also had the Kombo 1 organ with a monitor cab and the drummer ran a 8 piece double bass drum set and we played really loud. The K200 PA amp was more than enough to keep up with all the amps and organ.

pleat

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21325 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 17:13

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

In response to Steven: 3-15's are wired in parallel with a single throw/double pull switch that either turns the top speaker on or off. Hence 8 or 5.33 ohm cabinet. I added an additional input jack to top speaker so that when in the off position, that jack when connected to my Altec horn cabinet, now becomes the woofer in the cross-over circuit. Two 8 ohm circuits to get a 4 ohm load total per amp. I did this specifically with the intent to be used with the 400 series amp heads. When I recover the cabinets, I will have the switch and input jack installed in one of those plastic recessed plates mounted on the back speaker panel. Thinking also of adding LED lights that will indicate whether in 8 or 5.33 ohm mode. Since the only thing vintage about these cabinets is the bass ports and the grille cloth might as well pick up where Kustom left off and add a few more improvements. I have the tendency to not see things for what they are, but for what they could be. The new Delta's can be used for either bass or PA, so might as well make the cabinets the same as well.

Hoping your right about the sound issue. My old band days, we used what every we could afford or get our hands on. What ever the high school music department had for speakers and amps, we used; anyone we knew that had equipment to borrow, we did. Our PA equipment that I remember was a Traynor amp head and two 4-12's that I bought; couple of Shure columns and a big amp head that was piggy backed into the Traynor. Remember building a couple of columns that had 12's, cross-over and horns in it. Used that for years on my stereo system. Don't remember what happened to those. Thinking our system was around 500 watts or so. Guy who played keyboards was a wiring genius......and was always coming up with amps and speakers. Not sure how much of it was actually legal but figured what I didn't know couldn't hurt me.

Wished one of you guys lived closer to Iowa. No one around here will even work on Kustom equipment. Guitar Center in Des Moines won't touch them, same with a couple of other places I have tried. Options are now limited. I can read a schematic, and do understand a little technical jargon so I am not completely in the dark. Hoping you guys don't get tired of me asking question and for help all the time. Other option, if any of you are interested, would be willing to send amp to one of you if interested in overhauling it for me. We people in Iowa are of a trusting nature.....unless you screw us over. Baseball bat can be used for more than just baseball.......lol my mom is living proof of that. Turns out my "stereo" 400 doesn't work either. Surprise! So looks like I will be spending a lot of time on this site looking for help.

Will clean up the 400 and reset speakers and see what develops. Will be in touch with the outcome. Thanks again guys. I owe you so much beer its not even funny anymore.

[Updated on: Tue, 02 September 2014 17:16]

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21328 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 21:16

stevem
Messages: 4733
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

We will walk you thru getting the amp sorted out and fixed up, beer can be sent UPS or DHL right ? Lol!

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21329 is a reply to message #21314]

Tue, 02 September 2014 21:34

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

Name your poison and give me an address........this is why I trust you guys. Your real stand up fellows. Nice to know there are still some decent people left in the world .......just hope your not DEMOCRATS! lmao

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21331 is a reply to message #21314]

Wed, 03 September 2014 06:36

stevem
Messages: 4733
Registered: June 2004
Location: NY

Senior Member

Not me! I use to be 30 years ago, now its proud Tea party my friend!

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Re: PA ENERGIZERS [message #21332 is a reply to message #21314]

Wed, 03 September 2014 11:21

Iowa Boy
Messages: 767
Registered: June 2014

Senior Member

I hear you there brother....same with me as well.

Question about the "STEREO" amps........what is so different about them verses the "regular" 400 energizers?

Reset 3-15's this morning......I have POWER! Not hearing a feedback hum either. Do hear a rattle in one of the cabinets thought.......now I have to take out all those damned screws again.......

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2014 11:39]

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